紅迪討論區(qū)：中國是最古老的文明國家嗎？ 網(wǎng)友們都是人才，學(xué)習(xí)了

@Such_Somewhere_5032
Better to ask r/ChineseHistory, but I think the point is not about Chinese being the same for 2000 years, but that you can trace the continuous development of China over the past 4000 years and see that it is indeed unbroken.
A case in point is how history was recorded in China, the imperial court of each dynasty recorded what happened during its time, but the writing of the official history fell to the successor dynasty and in doing so the successor dynasty recognised the continuation of a line of successive dynasties that goes back to Zhou dynasty

你最好去 r/ChineseHistory 中國歷史版塊問問，不過重點并不是中文在兩千年里都沒變，而是中國在過去四千年里的發(fā)展是連續(xù)不斷的，這一點可以清楚追溯。
舉個例子，中國是如何記錄歷史的。每個朝代的朝廷都會記錄自己時期發(fā)生的事情，但官方史書的編寫工作通常由下一個朝代完成，這種做法實際上也是新朝代承認(rèn)了從周朝開始，一系列朝代持續(xù)不斷地延續(xù)下來。

@bjran8888
There are ancient civilizations that predate China, but many of them have broken off (most notably the ancient Babylonian civilization, which has died out)
Chinese civilization is still following the same writing, history and worldview as it did thousands of years ago, and it is very clearly documented in writing and artifacts.
I'm not sure about other civilizations (and I don't think we're the only ancient civilization that has survived to this day), but what I do know is that Chinese civilization has been around for a very long time.
I just visited the Terracotta Warriors and Horses Museum of Qin Shi Huang the other day, and I was in awe of the artifacts that were built from 246 B.C. - 208 B.C. - I could even recognize the writing that had been carved into most of the terracotta warriors and horses, and I could feel our cultural connection.

有一些比中華文明更早的古代文明，但很多早已斷絕（最明顯的就是已經(jīng)消亡的古巴比倫文明）。
而中華文明至今仍然沿用著幾千年前的文字、歷史和世界觀，這些內(nèi)容都有非常清晰的文獻(xiàn)和實物記錄。
我不太確定其他文明的情況（我也不認(rèn)為我們是唯一幸存至今的古老文明），但我知道中華文明確實存在了非常久遠(yuǎn)的時間。
前幾天我剛?cè)⒂^了秦始皇兵馬俑博物館，對于公元前246年到公元前208年制造出來的那些文物，我感到非常震撼。我甚至還能認(rèn)出大多數(shù)兵馬俑上刻的文字，能夠真切感受到我們和過去的文化聯(lián)系。

@random_agency
They are starting to find sites that are 6000 years old.
Written history goes back 3300 years to the Shang dynasty.
Classical Chinese that were formalized in 220 AD (Han Dynasty) can be read by modern college educated Chinese.
It is pretty much the oldest continuous civilization states.
Because of all the written data, Chinese history is a lot more rigorous in determining verified facts and artifacts.

他們現(xiàn)在已經(jīng)開始發(fā)現(xiàn)有六千年歷史的遺址了。
中國有文字記載的歷史可以追溯到三千三百年前的商朝。
從公元220年漢朝時期正式確定下來的文言文，到今天受過高等教育的中國人仍然能夠閱讀。
這基本上是世界上最古老且延續(xù)不斷的文明國家之一。
也因為有大量的文字資料，中國歷史在驗證事實和文物方面比其他地方更加嚴(yán)謹(jǐn)。

@SongOfThePast
we learn many 古文 in high school, 1800年以前曹操寫的短歌行, 諸葛亮的出師表等等，基本上中學(xué)水平都可以讀了。

我們在高中學(xué)了很多古文，比如1800年以前曹操寫的《短歌行》、諸葛亮的《出師表》等等，基本上到了中學(xué)的程度都可以閱讀了。

@Putrid-Storage-9827
AFAIK, civilisation-state is a buzzword invented by Martin Jacques. It's trendy language not really accepted by mainstream historians or analysts, a lot like ethnostate which was coined by Richard Spencer and is also somewhat superfluous and not clearly defined.

據(jù)我所知，“文明國家”是馬丁·雅克發(fā)明的一個流行詞匯。它只是時髦的說法，并沒有真正被主流歷史學(xué)家或分析人士所認(rèn)可，就像“民族國家”這個詞一樣，也是理查德·斯賓塞造出來的，有些多余，定義也不明確。

@Sorry_Sort6059
Simply put, no, but it might be the case for continuous civilization. I can read Chinese literature from 2,000 years ago. For texts from 3,000 years ago, I basically can't recognize them anymore—maybe I could guess one or two characters correctly... China's cultural relics are everywhere; you can dig up hundreds of kilograms of them without even trying. What puzzles me is why other civilizations don't have such massive outputs of artifacts?

簡單來說，不是這樣的，但對于持續(xù)不斷的文明可能確實如此。我現(xiàn)在可以讀懂兩千年前的中文文獻(xiàn)，但三千年前的文章基本看不懂了，可能只能偶爾猜對一兩個字。中國的文物到處都是，隨便挖一挖就能出來幾百公斤。讓我覺得奇怪的是，為什么其他文明沒有這么大量的文物出土？

@luffyuk
China's cultural relics are everywhere; you can dig up hundreds of kilograms of them without even trying. What puzzles me is why other civilizations don't have such massive outputs of artifacts?
Have you ever been to Egypt, Greece or Italy?

中國的文物遍地都是，隨便挖挖都能找到上百公斤，讓我不解的是為什么其他文明沒有這么大量的文物出土？
你去過埃及、希臘或者意大利嗎？

@SongOfThePast
i don't think you understand the quantity archeologist find in china, often time they have to bury them back or even throw away because there is too much and not enough time or people to study them. there are also many ancient site found in modern city that is building new thing, and the developer hide or destroy the site because he don't want the archeology team to go there and delay the development. so many case like this. archelogy is everywhere in china and is impossible to find and study them all. greece and italy very tiny in comparison, egypt is also only along the river.

我覺得你不明白考古學(xué)家在中國發(fā)現(xiàn)了多少文物，很多時候他們不得不把發(fā)現(xiàn)的東西重新掩埋甚至扔掉，因為數(shù)量太多，根本沒有足夠的時間和人員去研究。此外，在現(xiàn)代城市建設(shè)新項目時也經(jīng)常會發(fā)現(xiàn)很多古遺址，但是開發(fā)商為了不讓考古隊介入影響工程進(jìn)度，會選擇隱瞞甚至破壞遺址。這樣的例子有很多。在中國，考古發(fā)現(xiàn)無處不在，根本不可能全部找到并研究。相比之下，希臘和意大利的規(guī)模非常小，埃及的遺址也主要集中在河流沿岸。

@Sorry_Sort6059
I'm not denying the civilizations of ancient Egypt, Greece, or Rome. Take coins for example - I haven't seen records of theirs exceeding hundreds of kilograms, but just from the tomb of Marquis Haihun (a deposed emperor active around 70 BC) in China's Western Han Dynasty, over 10 tons of ancient coins were excavated, along with more than 100 kilograms of gold artifacts.
China has many such artifacts, including some extremely exquisite cultural relics that represent the civilization of that era. What I mean is that other ancient civilizations haven't yielded enough artifacts - there should be at least ten times more than what we've found so far.
Let me share an artifact belonging to my direct ancestor who was active in 443 BC. The complexity of this artifact is absolutely astonishing.

我并不是否認(rèn)古埃及、希臘或羅馬的文明。比如說錢幣吧——我沒有看到那些文明有超百公斤的錢幣出土記錄，但單單中國西漢時期（公元前70年左右活動的）“?；韬睢蹦怪?，就出土了超過10噸的古錢幣和100多公斤的金器。
在中國，這樣的文物還有很多，包括一些極其精美、能夠代表當(dāng)時文明水準(zhǔn)的文物。我的意思是，其他古代文明出土的文物數(shù)量還遠(yuǎn)遠(yuǎn)不夠——實際上應(yīng)該至少有我們目前發(fā)現(xiàn)數(shù)量的十倍才對。
這里想和大家分享一件我直系祖先（公元前443年）使用過的文物，其工藝復(fù)雜程度令人震撼。


@Fair-Currency-9993
Would you mind sharing more about this artifact? And in which museum is it stored?
I have never seen something like this before.

你能多介紹一下這個文物嗎？它現(xiàn)在收藏在哪個博物館？
我以前從沒見過這樣的東西。

@Sorry_Sort6059

This is the Zeng Hou Yi Zun Pan, known in Chinese as "曾侯乙尊盤" the most intricate and exquisite bronze artifact from the Spring and Autumn and Warring States periods (443 BCE). The bronze pan is adorned with 56 coiled dragons and 48 coiled serpents, and it is currently housed in the Hubei Provincial Museum in China.

This artifact was used for serving wine during banquets. The hollow center held the wine, while the outer section could be filled with ice in summer to chill the wine inside. In winter, charcoal could be burned to warm the wine.

這是曾侯乙尊盤，是春秋戰(zhàn)國時期（公元前443年）最精美復(fù)雜的青銅器。盤身飾有56條盤龍和48條盤蛇，現(xiàn)收藏于中國湖北省博物館。
這件器物在宴會上用于盛酒。中間的空心部分用來盛酒，外圈在夏天可以放冰來冰鎮(zhèn)酒，冬天則可以放炭火加熱酒。

@species5618w
China is not one of the oldest civilizations. However, China kept written histories throughout, which I think is unique in the world. And yes, China has a unique culture which while changed a lot over the year, stayed relatively continuous. Most of conquerors of China adopted the culture to certain degrees whereas China absorbed their cultures as well.

中國并不是最古老的文明之一，但中國自始至終都有文字記載的歷史，這在世界上是獨特的。同時，中國文化雖然經(jīng)過了許多變化，但整體上保持了相對的延續(xù)性。大多數(shù)征服中國的統(tǒng)治者都在一定程度上接受了中國文化，而中國自身也吸收了他們的文化。

@ophirelkbir
Skeptic Westerner
Not a Chinese person here but:
There's nothing unimpressive about the Chinese legacy and its cultural torch, but I think any attempt to present any one civilization as exceptionally old and continuous is doomed to rely on very specific standards for what counts as continuity.
I'm not sure what such a conclusion about one society or another would achieve other than a "we are better" vibe (AKA X-exceptionalism).

持懷疑態(tài)度的西方人
我不是中國人，但中國的歷史傳承和文化確實令人印象深刻。不過，我認(rèn)為如果想把某個文明單獨描述為“特別古老且連續(xù)”，其實很容易陷入用非常特定的標(biāo)準(zhǔn)來定義“連續(xù)性”。
至于把某個社會或文明得出這種結(jié)論，除了彰顯“我們更優(yōu)秀”（也就是某種特殊論）之外，好像沒有太多意義。

@Any_News_7208
Isn't it Iran for the longest continuous state?

不是伊朗才是歷史上存在最久的持續(xù)性國家嗎？

@SteakEconomy2024
@Any_News_7208
Like 60 years?
@Any_News_7208

大約60年？

@Vast_Cricket
Civilization started in Mesopotamia earlier.

文明最早起源于美索不達(dá)米亞。

@Dry-Interaction-1246
Try egypt

試談埃及

@nagidon

香港（特區(qū)）人

Was ancient Egypt an Islamic and self-styled Arab nation?

古代埃及是伊斯蘭國家并自稱為阿拉伯民族嗎？

@BanNer7
In which universe, cultures stay the same? Cultures change, civilizations change throughout their existence too, this is the 1st if not the 2nd thing they teach you in humanity class.
you question should be, why do we say "China's civilization didn't have a definitive end"
simply, 4 out 6 of them was Conquered, languang and religious replaced. Indus slowly vanished, Indus scxt too. Lost of language and scxt is one of the marks the end of a civilization. The other one is religion.
next time ask chatgpt or post it in r/AskHistorians

在哪個宇宙里文化會完全不變？文化和文明都會在其存在的過程中發(fā)生變化，這幾乎是人文學(xué)課上教你的第一或第二條內(nèi)容。
你的問題應(yīng)該是：為什么我們說“中國的文明沒有一個明確的終結(jié)”？
很簡單，因為六大古文明里有四個被征服了，語言和宗教都被取代。印度河文明慢慢消失，印度河文字也隨之消亡。語言和文字的喪失通常被認(rèn)為是一個文明終結(jié)的標(biāo)志，另一個標(biāo)志是宗教的更替。
下次你可以問問chatgpt，或者去r/AskHistorians發(fā)帖。

@Morph_Kogan
Mongolia is

蒙古是

@cordis000
They've lost their writing system, and Chinese has no.

他們失去了他們的文字系統(tǒng)，而中文并沒有。

@GerFubDhuw
Bro the current Chinese state celebrated it's 80th birthday a few years back.
It's Orientalist nonsense to say modern China hasn't changed in thousands of years.
Back in Qin humans hadn't really developed the idea of nations yet. Mostly we identified with our town/city rather than a nation.
France and England are both about 1000 years old. Nobody would say the cultures of France and England have continued unchanged for 1000 years.
I'll speak to England because I'm from there but we've had a few civil wars, been an absolute monarchy, had a dozen dynasties rule, been a republic, went to a parliamentary monarchy, industrialised, and have had more than a dozen levels of suffrage and subject's/citizen's rights.
Nobody would say English culture hasn't changed since 1066. To portray China as this unevolving monolith is a discredit to its rich and dynamic history.

兄弟，中華人民共和國在幾年前才剛剛慶祝了80周年。
說現(xiàn)代中國幾千年來都沒變，這種觀點其實是一種東方主義的胡說八道。
在秦朝的時候，人類甚至還沒真正形成“國家”的概念，大多數(shù)人更認(rèn)同自己的城鎮(zhèn)或城市，而不是國家。
法國和英格蘭的歷史大約有1000年，但沒人會說法國或英國的文化在這1000年里一直沒有變化。
我可以談?wù)動?，因為我是英國人——我們?jīng)歷過幾場內(nèi)戰(zhàn)，當(dāng)過君主專制政體，被十幾個王朝統(tǒng)治過，當(dāng)過共和國，后來變成議會君主制，還完成了工業(yè)化，關(guān)于選舉權(quán)和公民權(quán)利也經(jīng)歷了十幾次重大變化。
沒有人會說英國文化自1066年以來就沒變過。把中國描繪成一個幾千年來一成不變的整體，其實是對中國豐富而多元歷史的極大誤解。

@biggamehaunter
China still has the same mandate of heaven.

中國依然擁有同樣的天命。

@dowker1
Quick question: if you took someone, even an educated senior official, from Qin dynasty China, don you think they'd find it easy to fit in modern China? There's your answer.

閃問：如果你把一個人，甚至是受過教育的秦朝高級官員，帶到現(xiàn)代中國，你覺得他能輕松融入嗎？這就是答案。

@Key3892
First of all, of course culture doesn’t remain unchanged — everything is constantly evolving. Then, this is just my personal view: I believe that whether a civilization can be considered continuous depends on whether its people are still directly or indirectly influenced by it today, and whether they regard it as their own history.
In that sense, I would say yes — Chinese civilization has indeed continued to the present day. Thanks to a long-standing tradition of historical record-keeping over thousands of years (which, when compared with regional archaeological findings, is generally considered to be highly reliable), it’s relatively easy for later generations to form a sense of civilizational identity through the study of history.

首先，文化當(dāng)然不會一成不變，一切都在不斷發(fā)展演變。接下來說下我的個人觀點：我認(rèn)為，一個文明是否可以被認(rèn)為是連續(xù)的，取決于今天的人們是否依然直接或間接受其影響，以及他們是否把它當(dāng)作自己的歷史。
從這個意義上來說，我認(rèn)為中國文明確實延續(xù)到了今天。由于中國有幾千年詳細(xì)的史書記載傳統(tǒng)（與地區(qū)考古發(fā)現(xiàn)相對比，這些記載普遍被認(rèn)為是高度可靠的），后世人們通過學(xué)習(xí)歷史，相對容易形成對這一文明的認(rèn)同感。

@TheTerribleInvestor
I think its unfair to call China a country or nation for that entire period of time. Throughout that time China has unified broken up and unified again multiple times. Also the concept of a nation is a relatively new one. I think if you went to any region in any country where there were people they would only really claim they are from their local region.

我認(rèn)為，把中國在那段整個時期都稱為一個國家或民族是不公平的。在那段時間里，中國多次統(tǒng)一又分裂，再統(tǒng)一。其實“國家”這個概念本身也是相對較新的。如果你在任何國家的任何地區(qū)問當(dāng)?shù)厝?，他們大概只會認(rèn)為自己來自本地的某個地方。

@FinancialImpress6386
nope

不行

@popofthedead
The only meaningful difference among old civilizations is China survived all odds and became huge and important, while still retain that ancient indentity. Other powers dont have identities as old, and other old nations are not powers.

古代文明之間唯一有意義的區(qū)別在于中國經(jīng)歷重重考驗依然幸存下來，發(fā)展壯大成為重要國家，同時還保留著古老的身份。其他強國沒有如此悠久的身份，而那些同樣古老的國家如今卻已不再是世界強國。

@SteakEconomy2024

我的太太福建 - 我是美國人

Only if you sextively define a civilization in a way no one would to exclude all other older civilizations, while simultaneously ignoring centuries of foreign rule by Mongolians and Manchu.

只有在你故意用別人都不會用的方式來定義“文明”，把其他更古老的文明排除在外，同時還選擇性忽略了蒙古人和滿族人對中國幾百年的統(tǒng)治，這種說法才成立。